Report on doing my '88 LS Rear Brakes Job

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Report on doing my '88 LS Rear Brakes Job

Unread postby Bill Pieper » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:34 am

(Note: below info cut and pasted from Yahoo group: 1winne_h-bodys. Thank you guys for the useful information and tips on doing the rear brakes.)


Report on Rear Brakes job. It is going very slow, I just completed (almost) one rear wheel tonight. Help! I cannot get the grease cap (cup?) to go on. I have hammered and hammered, first with rubber hammer, then after HOURS I got frustrated and started bashing away with a 5 pound steel hammer. I even took it and filed the edge all around with a slight angle to seat better. It still wont go on, keeps popping one way or the other way, or even pops right off when I bash it a good one square on. What is going on here anyway???? I am totally frustrated and puzzled how to get this grease cap on. Gee, it came off that wheel too! Do you suppose maybe I put too much grease in the bearing hub? I really filled it all up all the space inside, just like it was when I took it off it was full of grease. Any brake job type mechanics have a LeSharo with any good answers on this cap (cup?) crap problem not going back on???? Dynamite maybe?

BTW: another thought, I am glad I was suspicious of the last brake shop that was into my rear brakes, and decided to do the brake job myself, to do it right! The same San Diego Roadmaster Authorized shop (Mo's) that put on my Roadmaster RAS suspension unit and WERE trying to do my rear brakes job but could not find parts for it (thank GOD), so they said I could get all the parts and they would do the brake jop for $130, plus grease the bearings for another $80. Well, those idiots they were into my rear brakes on the right side took off the brake cylinder to try to find a fit around town. They couldnt find a similar replacement anywhere, so they kinda put it back together again.... and THE IDIOT ASSEMBLED IT WRONG! The brakes fell apart when I opened up the brake drum off. The guy had the smaller double spring all bent up and on WRONG, in a hole instead of on the "stop plate", and the stop plate was loose and fell to the ground.... which means the rest of the brakes came unglued totally and fell apart. If I was coming down a long steep mountain grade and that happened, I could have been killed along with my family in the LS! He also got the large brake spring REVERSED, and it was interfering with the emergency brake! And to top that all off, the guy tightend the soft bolt on the brake cylinder so much, I had to practically destroy it to get it off. Actually, I got a very good idea advice from this group (I forgot his name, but thanks guy very much anyway)to get that brake cylinder bolt off: use a very small pipe wrench to bite down on the soft bolt, just enough to "break" the tightened force and loosen it, so then I used the 12mm wrench to finish off taking it off. But I didn't try that idea first, I waited until I had already pretty much rounded the bolt head off... but still usable to hold the brake fluid line.
Also, this 88 LS has had a former rear brake job, because what I found damage on the metal bearing. The long ago unknown former owner or shop mechanic that put on the metal seal behind the inner bearing, he used a chisel or blunt screwdriver to hammer in on all along the edges in about 4 places. GEEZZZ, why didnt he just use a pipe to fit, or a metal tin can, or plastic PVC pipe, or whatever, even use the inner bearing to press it home? Really dumb to use a chisel or screwdriver to pound that bearing home on its sharp edges instead of the flat back. However, it still was usable, I checked very carefully all around it to see if the rubber seal edge left a mark without a dent or scratch crossing the path. It barely misses all the dents. So I just left it on, and repacked the inner bearing with new grease, and used a new seal. I hope the new seal misses all the dents too. I got the brake shoes off and new on again without using any special tools, just screwdrivers and pliers. First I mounted one shoe with the emerg brake levers with that center spring&nail thingy to hold it on flat on the backing plate. Then putting on both smaller and large springs easy by kinda pulling both shoes close together off the end holders and brake cylinder, and after getting on the springs, torque the 2nd shoe back on against the backing plate holding it with one hand on tight. The other hand was free to kinda push the shoes "nail?" thingy through the center hole and put the little round spring and cup/cap through the "nail" by pressing down hard on the spring with a medium size (1/4 in?) nut driver, while with other hand rotate the 'nail' thingy until it finally goes througe the hole in the cap thingy and stays put. Well, actually that part was kinda tricky, took many tries when the nut driver slipped, and spring and cap thingy went "boinnnngggg" and flew across the yard, or up in the air into the street. Whew, I found them parts each time it went "boooiiinnngg"...
So now, I just need to get that darn grease cap on and I am done WITH ONE WHEEL in 2 days. 2nd wheel tommorrow. I work kinda slow... but steady progess..... this LS will have good reliable rear brakes when I am done with it....
Bill P. 88 gas LS


--- In 1winne_h-bodys@yahoogroups.com, "red77jc" <red77jc@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you John, this is what I wanted to hear! Whew, takes off a lot
> of pressure to not have to remove that inner bearing if possible. I
> was afraid I would have to take it off and I would probably damage it
> doing that. OK, I will tackle this brake job and try to clean it and
> regrease it in place after cleaning up the brake job and brake
> cylinder replacement and repaint the brake backing plate that is all
> rusted to hell. And the back of plate is really rusted bad too, and
> the axle, so I will wire brush that off and paint it black to help
> prevent any more rusting going on there.
> Bill P. 88 gas LS
>
> --- In 1winne_h-bodys@yahoogroups.com, VB John <johnmarg@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill P,
> > I haven't yet tackled the rear brakes but reading the book, It
> appears
> > that the seal is in the hub and can be changed without removing the
> > bearing. If you need to change the metal ring (deflector) then the
> > bearing needs to come off but I doubt this will be necessary. The
> type
> > of puller depicted in the book should not damage the bearing unless
> it
> > is stuck exceptionally tight.
> > My suggestion would be to protect the bearing with Saran wrap or
> > similar to keep dirt out while working on the brakes and then clean
> and
> > regrease the bearing in place. Replace the seal in the hub and
> reassemble.
> > John
> >
> > red77jc wrote:
> >
> > >Does taking off the rear brake inner bearing with a puller destroy
> > >the bearing so you have to install a new one every time the
> bearing
> > >is removed? This is what the guy at NAPA told me would happen if I
> > >pulled that inner bearing off it will be damaged tugging on the
> > >bearing cage, and always install a new one? He suggested I not
> take
> > >it off, and just clean it good with brake cleaner, and pack it
> good
> > >with the Valvoline W985 grease (NAPA $4.29 per tube) by hand and
> > >fingers. But what about the grease seal? Is it on the hub, or on
> the
> > >axle? If on hub, no sweat, just pry it off, and tapp on a new one.
> If
> > >on the axle, gotta destroy a perfectly good bearing to just
> replace
> > >the grease seal behind it? That is the unknown to me still, where
> is
> > >that grease seal located, on hub, or on axle behind bearing. I
> have
> > >the Heavy Duty Rear Brakes on 1988 gas LS.
> > >Bill P. 88 gas LS
> > >
> > >
> >
>
===========================================

Right on, aherw141! I'm sorry you havent mentioned your name, I wanted to thank you for the great idea how to get the rear brake cylinder 12mm brake line bolt off using the small pipe wrench. I followed your advice and it worked! Well, I did after I rounded off the bolt a bit, it was on so tight it would not 'break' its grip on the rusted hole. Also, I have one of those spring removal-install brake tools you mentioned, and it was useless to use, for installation, it would damage the new brake shoe linings with its very sharp end. I notice in the Vol II manual they have a nice 'mushroom' ended brake tool to install the springs, it would not damage the linings. So i had to improvise to get them springs on. I jsut put one shoe on (emerg brake hardware shoe)with its center sping using a 3/8 or 1/2 inch socket driver on a wooden handle that fit over the cup that goes on top of that little spring in the center, and kinda moved the 'nail' rotating it until it locked in place. Then I put both the top and bottom spring onto the other shoe (without any center spring/nail attached, so shoe was loose) by pulling it as close together as possible, also moving the attached shoe as close as I could, then the springs are so close to thier holes it was fairly easy to grab them with pliers and pull into the holes. Then I torqued the loose shoe into place and held it there until I could get that center spring-nail thingy on with the socket driver tool used to press the spring down and get 'nail' to grab the cup slotted hole. That part was tricky and took several tries with springs and parts flying. A pair of eyeglasses was required on this step to protect the eyes from flying parts when it messed up. But it worked eventually. Now I still need to get that grease cup hammered back on. It wont go yet. Maybe have to buy a new one, does seem to want to go on with multiple tries. I think I put too much grease in the middle of the hub, there is no grease in the cup, but it wont go on.
Bill P. 88 gas LS

--- In 1winne_h-bodys@yahoogroups.com, "aherw141" <aherw141@...> wrote:
>
> I posted the rear brake job awhile back ,with problems I encountered
> and the solutions .I may have left one out.bleeding the brakes after
> replacing two brake cylinders.
> Like most folks I buy things ,put them away and forget about them.this
> was the case here.while trying to figure out how to bleed the brakes
> with out help I spotted a new gadget I had bought when?
> a hand vacaumm pump.
> I followed the directions and it worked very well.I hope this helps.
> another thing that tool I mentioned in my post to install and remove
> the brake springs ,prevents the springs from flying away and maybe
> cause an eye injury.the tool cost maybe $3.oo at pep boys.
> repeat do not use a standard brake spring removal tool,or you will
> damage your new pads.
>
=================================----------------------
Follow up on the grease cups. I got the old ones to go on finally.
Actually they went on more easy in the warm noon sunshiny day, than when I was trying to pound them on late on a cold night.
The difference was the ambient temperature of warm daytime verses nighttime cold, when pounding the grease cups back on the hub. When cold at night time the metal cups just would not go on, kept popping off every time I hit them with the rubber mallot, or steel 5 lb hammer. But during the daytime with a warm summer sun out, the cups when on fairly easily when pounding with a rubber mallot or the 5 lb steel hammer.
Bill P. '88 gas/auto
1988 LeSharo gas/automatic transmission
User avatar
Bill Pieper
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:51 pm
Location: San Diego, California


Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off

Unread postby Bill Pieper » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:39 am

Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off

(some more info on the rear brake job, cut and pasted from 1winne_h-bodys group.)

I have the 1988 gas LS with heavy duty rear brakes. I am trying to replace the rear brake cylinders and shoes with the parts I bought from Mobility about 1-2 months ago (procrastination and fear to tackle the expected can-of-worms brake job). Well, I admit I forget the skills on how to get the brake shoes springs off, since I only do a rear brake job about once every 5-10 years (and I had a brake shop do wifes car rear brakes last time around). However, with the LS I really need to do this work myself, I do not trust the average mechanic found at typical auto repair/brake shops today, to do this job correctly and safely. I already have learned the hard way about this bad poor work experience with the LS TWICE already traveling cross-country, with 2 mechanics incompetent poor work, and it cost me $786, and $435 for improperly adjusted timing belt that snapped, and leaving off bolts on the alternator that broke the alternator body bracket, which I finally did the repair myself to get it done right!
The Volume II 1983-86 manual I have does not give detailed instructions how to do this spring removal job, saying just "unhook the bottom spring, followed by top spring". It does not say if you should take off the center hub (separate from drum for heavy duty axle) with the bearings or leave it on to just replace shoes and brake cylinder. The picture accompaning does show the bearings hub off, but didn't mention this in directions to follow. I was trying to avoid removing bearings hub at this time, and avoiding a more complicated & time consuming job (fear and procrastination again...). I guess I might as well take the hub off, and regrease with new grease (NAPA Valvoline 985 said John at Mobility), ugh I hate this part of the job, it will be messy and time consuming, but at least the brake shoes and springs and cylinder will be more accessable to work with. I don't know how I will be able to take off the larger roller bearings without that special puller tool with the 2 halves: Rou. 898 and extractor Mot. 49. How the heck can us home parttime mechanics get that bearing off to clean out old grease and repack with new grease? Use a large screwdriver as a pry bar on back of bearing? Maybe I can just clean the large roller bearing in place on the spindle, and repack it in place??? Sounds risky to do that and be assured grease gets into the rollers ok. Besides, I already bought the rubber grease seals and metal seals from Mobility, I should do it right now, and get that large bearing off to replace the grease seal behind it?; if there is a seal behind it ???, since my Volume II manual says very little about grease seals and how to replacing the seals! I see a description on pages L3-1-3, and M9-1-3, but it is unclear to a semi-skilled do-it-yourselfer like me. Mobility sent me 2 round rubber/metal rear axle heavy duty grease seals R5000387566, and 2 round all metal seal rear axle heavy duty R5000387456. I still don't know where they go, until I tear the brakes down. I guess I can probably just use a large screwdriver to pry out the old seals, since I dont have that Rou. 896 tool.
Gads, no wonder I was procrastinating for over 2 months to do this brake job, it is sounding more severly challenging to me as I type this. If anyone has any suggestions to do this rear brake job easier or correctly, please give me your advice, it will be definitely appreaciated, especially on how to get the inner bearing off. Thanks for any help anyone can give on this.
Bill P. 88 gas LS

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Re: [1winne_h-bodys] Re: Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off


At 03:28 AM 8/16/2007, you wrote:

>Does taking off the rear brake inner bearing with a puller destroy
>the bearing so you have to install a new one every time the bearing
>is removed? This is what the guy at NAPA told me would happen if I
>pulled that inner bearing off it will be damaged tugging on the
>bearing cage, and always install a new one? He suggested I not take
>it off, and just clean it good with brake cleaner, and pack it good
>with the Valvoline W985 grease (NAPA $4.29 per tube) by hand and
>fingers.

On my '92 LeSharo, the inner bearing was not that tight on the
spindle. I think that using the puller would not hurt the
bearing. Using chisels and pry bars might.

>But what about the grease seal? Is it on the hub, or on the
>axle? If on hub, no sweat, just pry it off, and tapp on a new one. If
>on the axle, gotta destroy a perfectly good bearing to just replace
>the grease seal behind it? That is the unknown to me still, where is
>that grease seal located, on hub, or on axle behind bearing. I have
>the Heavy Duty Rear Brakes on 1988 gas LS.

The grease seal is in the hub. However, it seals against a deflector
which is mounted on the spindle behind the inner bearing. The
deflector is a thin steel ring which is easily bent and if that
happens, it will be necessary to remove the inner bearing to replace
the deflector. If you aren't very careful, even using the puller can
damage the deflector because the puller lip goes between the bearing
cage and the deflector and could distort it.



****************
James E. Martz
Milan, OH
*****************

===========================================
Re: [1winne_h-bodys] Re: Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off


Bill P,
I haven't yet tackled the rear brakes but reading the book, It appears
that the seal is in the hub and can be changed without removing the
bearing. If you need to change the metal ring (deflector) then the
bearing needs to come off but I doubt this will be necessary. The type
of puller depicted in the book should not damage the bearing unless it
is stuck exceptionally tight.
My suggestion would be to protect the bearing with Saran wrap or
similar to keep dirt out while working on the brakes and then clean and
regrease the bearing in place. Replace the seal in the hub and reassemble.
John

red77jc wrote:

>Does taking off the rear brake inner bearing with a puller destroy
>the bearing so you have to install a new one every time the bearing
>is removed? This is what the guy at NAPA told me would happen if I
>pulled that inner bearing off it will be damaged tugging on the
>bearing cage, and always install a new one? He suggested I not take
>it off, and just clean it good with brake cleaner, and pack it good
>with the Valvoline W985 grease (NAPA $4.29 per tube) by hand and
>fingers. But what about the grease seal? Is it on the hub, or on the
>axle? If on hub, no sweat, just pry it off, and tapp on a new one. If
>on the axle, gotta destroy a perfectly good bearing to just replace
>the grease seal behind it? That is the unknown to me still, where is
>that grease seal located, on hub, or on axle behind bearing. I have
>the Heavy Duty Rear Brakes on 1988 gas LS.
>Bill P. 88 gas LS
>
>
1988 LeSharo gas/automatic transmission
User avatar
Bill Pieper
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:51 pm
Location: San Diego, California

Re: Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off and inner be

Unread postby Bill Pieper » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:48 am

(some more info on the rear brake job, cut and pasted from 1winne_h-bodys, & LeSharo Owners groups.)

Re: Rear Brakes Job trouble getting springs off and inner bearing


Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:26 pm

I have a 84 TD and although yours may be different, I will let you
know what I suggest. For my rear shoes, I uses a small needle nose
plyers to depress (actually stretch) the hold down spring (in the
middle of the shoe)and rotate it out of the backing place bracket
(you can actually see it behind the shoe where it contacts the
backing plate) Don't stretch them though. I am sure there is a
special tool for the job which I didn't have. These springs were the
most difficult for me, and the remaining were easily removed.

As for the bearing, I strongly recommend that you remove it and
inspect it closely. Since mine were worn out, I used a flat chizzle
and tapped it away from the backing plate/spindle. Once it was
moving, 2 large prybars, (one on each side) slide it off. Use the old
bearing to help assist the new one in place and prevent tapping on
the new bearing.
I hope this helps.
Ed

===========================================================
Winn_Hbody grp
New brakes
Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:45 pm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"aherw141"

I ordered rear brake shoes from our source in Iowa.they came with all
of the hardware and a picture of how they should be installled.I have
it all done but am puzzeled by the top spring and what hole to place
it on.
I might add that although I have the manual ,it is of little use for
this job as the brake have less parts for the adjustment portion and
the auto adjuster is different.
any picture would be of big help.
the shoes have many holes most you use the same,but that top spring
may be installed in one of two thanks to all

=----------------------------



Group I figured it out.it is really quite simple.only suggest that if
you ever replace your rear brake pads ,that you use good quality brake
tools.
I replaced both rear brake cylinders and the pads,the brakes cylinder
flare nut is 12mm and very soft.I suggest you remove the bleeder from
the cylinder (8mm)and break the flare with a small pipe wrench,you
will not damage it if you are careful,then use a 12mm flare wrench
the brakes you get from mobility are the same except for the auto
ajustmentment feature ,it is now simplefied.
To install the springs I used a tool like a screwdriver that the
spring could be installed in and held with a nut it is a break spring
tool.the upper spring Is tough because of the clearance but a small
pair of vise grips ,very small did the trick.
as for the location of the springs (to be installed) the picture you
get has a cross on it and you can determine which holes to install
the springs in.I am sure you all are pros ,but this is for the benefit
of folks like me.

----------------------
Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:20 pm

Now that I have installed new shoes and two wheel cylinders ,I do not
have any emergency brake.
I have the book but it is minamal in its explaination .the other thing
the brakes come with different type auto adjustment.I would like to
know how that works.
does it work when driving in reverse and braking?or each time the
emergency brake handle is empolyed.
bear in mind that this system is different than the one I removed,less
pieces for the auto adjustment.
I have adjusted the cable underneath as instructed by the book and it
seem to thighted the hand brake some ,but still no brakes (emergency)
and I am afraid to contine adjusting for fear of running out of thread
to adjust on.any help would be appreciated .thanks in advance
-------------------
13655 Re: [1winne_h-bodys] emergency brake adjustment

did you check the old shoes against the new one for size? did you install back the equalizer bar ?, you must have it as your e-brake cable only pulls on one shoe on each side. a hint if your regular brake pedal seems low the shoes are probally not adjusted right,
good luck !
Fred , A.S.E. master Tech..
-------------------------------
Apr 30, 2007
9:45 am
13659 Brakes and emergency cable adjustment

I should have made it clear,the new brake shoes you get from Mobility
require you throw all of the old parts away.and just go with the new
type.
It is a simpler design and I am sure it will be fine.
how ever.I still want to know how the auto brake adjustment feature
works.and also how to go about adjusting the emergency brake cable.
thank you.I am speaking about the rear brakes only.
Has any body replaced their brakes with the new type of system yet?
I also will state that I have converted my coach several years ago,at
first with the 1st version and later went back to sworks for v 2.in
all my dealing with Greg I have been threated fair and I am very
pleased with my conversion and have had no trouble with it. I also
want to state I live in California and that the coach has passed all
smog tests to date.once when I first went to have the coach tested by
a referee,because of a engine change he would not pass it because of
the missing check engine light.I let Greg know and he got me what I
needed post haste and since then no problem .
for your information I get from 15 to as high as 22 miles to the
gallon depending on how fast I drive.I picked the 3.3 engine because
it has a chain timing system as opposed to the belt on the 3.5.the
other thing you should know is that the 3.8 is the 3.3 bored and
stroked out.now all I do is routine maintenace and have for many years
for I think six years now.I have not been as active in this group as
some of you and its because most of the group is so much more
knowledgeable.for the new comers I will state to not over estimate
what is wrong with the drive train,start with the simple things,stalls
and stops I fine to be leaking vacaum hoses from being split or
rotton.pull the engine cover in the inside and you will fine some of
your problems there.once you take care of the vacaum the engine will
run steady and efficient providing it does not have a mecahnical
problem.the sweet spot for the engine (2.2) is around 62 to 64 miles
per hour maybe a litte more you will hear it go almost quiet.once
again this is for the new folks

--------------------------
1988 LeSharo gas/automatic transmission
User avatar
Bill Pieper
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:51 pm
Location: San Diego, California



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